Woods vs. Irons

[3Putt]

Imagine the divot as something that is a product of the manner in which you set up , not something you go down and after with your swing.

Thanks OB. Your choice of words struck a chord with me. I don't need to force a divot - it is a natural consequence of the appropriate machine setup.

In your first response you mentioned the release type. This is a really foggy area for me. I don't really have a grasp of release types and triggers, let alone know which variations I employ. Do you have any additional comments on the release of irons vs woods.

I can only describe what I feel. For woods, there is no conscious thought. Release just happens. I feel as if I trust centrifugal force and go along for the ride. If I had to guess, I'd say a sweep release. For irons, it seems to be a sharper/crisper/more abrupt delivery as opposed to going along for the ride of the orbiting clubhead. I periodically arrive at impact with an (over) bent right wrist/right arm (having to make a god-awful compensation just to get the clubhead in the vicinity of the ball) And a glancing blow severely right, not a shank but a severely open clubface. That "wilted feeling of a blocked shot"

Again, back to my question. Why so easy with woods and so difficult with irons.

Thanks
3putt

[12 piece bucket]

Thanks OB. Your choice of words struck a chord with me. I don't need to force a divot - it is a natural consequence of the appropriate machine setup.

In your first response you mentioned the release type. This is a really foggy area for me. I don't really have a grasp of release types and triggers, let alone know which variations I employ. Do you have any additional comments on the release of irons vs woods.

I can only describe what I feel. For woods, there is no conscious thought. Release just happens. I feel as if I trust centrifugal force and go along for the ride. If I had to guess, I'd say a sweep release. For irons, it seems to be a sharper/crisper/more abrupt delivery as opposed to going along for the ride of the orbiting clubhead. I periodically arrive at impact with an (over) bent right wrist/right arm (having to make a god-awful compensation just to get the clubhead in the vicinity of the ball) And a glancing blow severely right, not a shank but a severely open clubface. That "wilted feeling of a blocked shot"

Again, back to my question. Why so easy with woods and so difficult with irons.

Thanks
3putt

Where would your left elbow be pointing from release to impact? I find that if you "over do" the sexy trigger delay pitch elbow hitting down chasing shaft lean with the irons . . . you never get the butt cap to look "back at your hips" . . . the butt cap looks down the line too long . . . shifts the plane out to the right, opens the face and causes center of your shoulder turn to move backward. Notice where the butt cap is pointing at address as if it were a flash light. It would shine to the left of Peter but still shine on your hips . . as you get into delivery and release you want that light to shine back toward you and not so much "down the line" . . . the butt cap/handle works in toward your center and the clubhead works out to the ball. If you don't let your hands and the handle work back "into you" and they continue out toward the ball too long, you raise up the handle shifting the face vector right (like a side hill lie) and open the face.

So if you had a stick sticking out of that hole in the butt cap, you need to release so that you maintain your left arm wedge alignment . . . you have to move your hands (#3 and #2) in a way that would get that stick to slap you in the ulna bone as you go to full lever extension (fully uncocked) . . . kinda like doing a volley ball dig . . . sounds like your club is never "encountering" the pulley portion of the endless belt . . . look at Hogan and where the "flash light" in the butt cap would be shining . . . also imagine he's popping a volley ball up in frames 3-4-5.

Also note in the first frame . . . there's not this big "Ben Doyle" angle present . . . the the angles are releasing/expanding . . . not holding on.







Note where Doyles flash light would shine!!! . . . Note how he is tilting backward . . . Hogan tilts his shoulders obviously but he is way more forward and MOVING FORWARD . . . not tilting back . . . Doyle's light never shines back at him . . . off plane motion . . . hanging on . . too much shaft lean . . . hook swing . . . maximum participation pattern has given the machine a bad name.

[O.B.Left]

Hey Bucket I'm not that familiar with what Mr Doyle teaches. Does he get to that late Release point by "holding on"' to number 2 angle? I like the notion that the Hands are just clamps and the Wrists are tension free, add some extensor action for Structure. Holding on is not possible this way. That's why I don't like that deal where people pose at a late release point........ You have to freeze your wrists to cop that pose. Not what you should do when really swinging.

Interesting Hand Path there ......not truly straight line but really straight relatively speaking.

[NCHamr]

I can't tell if the camera angles are similar enough for me to make my observations, but a couple thing jumped out at me when looking at these. Firstly, in frame one of Hogan and three of Doyle, their hands are at the right thigh. so with that similar hand position, what I noticed was a more Pitch-y Elbow and more Acc. 2 with Doyle, and Hogan's Left Knee being more toward the target than Doyle. Then going to frame 2 of Hogan and 4 of Doyle, Hogan's hands are inside his left thigh at Impact with his flashlight pointing to his left hip or just outside, where Doyle's hands are on his left thigh prior to Impact and his flashlight still way outside of his body. There could be something to all this, there could not be, but all I'm saying is those Hogan frames are the ones I'd more likely make into posters and hang on my walls

[12 piece bucket]

I can't tell if the camera angles are similar enough for me to make my observations, but a couple thing jumped out at me when looking at these. Firstly, in frame one of Hogan and three of Doyle, their hands are at the right thigh. so with that similar hand position, what I noticed was a more Pitch-y Elbow and more Acc. 2 with Doyle, and Hogan's Left Knee being more toward the target than Doyle. Then going to frame 2 of Hogan and 4 of Doyle, Hogan's hands are inside his left thigh at Impact with his flashlight pointing to his left hip or just outside, where Doyle's hands are on his left thigh prior to Impact and his flashlight still way outside of his body. There could be something to all this, there could not be, but all I'm saying is those Hogan frames are the ones I'd more likely make into posters and hang on my walls

Absolutely Hogan gets a poster Doyle gets posterized as the kids say . . . Like my man the nefarious dr. evil genius Eddie Cox (who you need to see if you are in NC) . . . put yourself in those positions and then say "How do you hit the ball from here??" If you get your elbow that pitchy . . . you are going to have to a. straighten the left knee earlier b. tilt your spine back c. have to make some kind of whacky move to get the face on the ball or strengthen your grip d. keep the radius short so you don't hit behind . . .

Another Eddie Cox deal . . . Are those "compressed angles" really that effective or is it a result of "lag (accumulator lag) envy"?

[O.B.Left]

Absolutely Hogan gets a poster Doyle gets posterized as the kids say . . . Like my man the nefarious dr. evil genius Eddie Cox (who you need to see if you are in NC) . . . put yourself in those positions and then say "How do you hit the ball from here??" If you get your elbow that pitchy . . . you are going to have to a. straighten the left knee earlier b. tilt your spine back c. have to make some kind of whacky move to get the face on the ball or strengthen your grip d. keep the radius short so you don't hit behind . . .

Another Eddie Cox deal . . . Are those "compressed angles" really that effective or is it a result of "lag (accumulator lag) envy"?

Interesting stuff Buck. I do see a strong grip on Mr Doyle there as opposed to Hogan weak left hand grip. And an iron shot vs a driver for Hogan and some perhaps over zealous shaft lean. His left hand is way turned on the club no? Strong Single Action grip maybe? He's knuckles up. Just saying I agree with you ......his face angle at Top , his shaft lean .....its related to his strong left hand grip Im thinking. His #2 cocks and uncocks on the same plane as his Right Wrist bends. His wedges are not 90 degrees to each other but in line perhaps? (Lab coats please) His shaft lean is a not fully uncocked/released #2 angle.


I dunno. I got a Hogan grip myself , thumb on top but maybe Ted would comment. His left hand is turned. Wish I could retrain the thing to get a little stronger.

Just saying that without the turned left hand grip type those would be some weird positions yes but with .............its a different story. Shaft lean becomes #2 angle too. #2 angle is the same as Right Wrist Bend. Cats chasing dogs. Water running running up hill.

I got some Bobby Clampett film I should put up . A practice swing with a driver that looks just like Mr Doyle there and then the actual stroke with a more six oclock shaft lean. From Carnoustie last year at the Senior Open. Crazy beautiful stuff, but if he'd actually hit the driver with that amount of shaft lean it'd be fore right, given his grip type. Is this all something to do with the Ben Doyle version of the Aiming Point? The Impact Hands Location taken to an extreme with all clubs and sometimes begetting a super strong left hand grip to make it work , face wise? Great for shorter irons maybe? I dunno. Id love to get a lesson from Mr Doyle though. WAy off topic now, there are people on this board who have had many a lesson from Lynn, Ben , Alex, Jeff, Greg, Tom , Ted ...... We tend to bite our tongues on the differences out of respect. Which is due, but there are differences.

[chipingguru]

Aiming point in front of the ball like Ben would be an acceptable variation under 6-E wouldn't it?

If you went further on into his swing I feel the flashlight would also point at his belly along with a more pronounced roll.

[12 piece bucket]

Interesting stuff Buck. I do see a strong grip on Mr Doyle there as opposed to Hogan weak left hand grip. And an iron shot vs a driver for Hogan and some perhaps over zealous shaft lean. His left hand is way turned on the club no? Strong Single Action grip maybe? He's knuckles up. Just saying I agree with you ......his face angle at Top , his shaft lean .....its related to his strong left hand grip Im thinking. His #2 cocks and uncocks on the same plane as his Right Wrist bends. His wedges are not 90 degrees to each other but in line perhaps? (Lab coats please) His shaft lean is a not fully uncocked/released #2 angle.


I dunno. I got a Hogan grip myself , thumb on top but maybe Ted would comment. His left hand is turned. Wish I could retrain the thing to get a little stronger.

Just saying that without the turned left hand grip type those would be some weird positions yes but with .............its a different story. Shaft lean becomes #2 angle too. #2 angle is the same as Right Wrist Bend. Cats chasing dogs. Water running running up hill.

I got some Bobby Clampett film I should put up . A practice swing with a driver that looks just like Mr Doyle there and then the actual stroke with a more six oclock shaft lean. From Carnoustie last year at the Senior Open. Crazy beautiful stuff, but if he'd actually hit the driver with that amount of shaft lean it'd be fore right, given his grip type. Is this all something to do with the Ben Doyle version of the Aiming Point? The Impact Hands Location taken to an extreme with all clubs and sometimes begetting a super strong left hand grip to make it work , face wise? Great for shorter irons maybe? I dunno. Id love to get a lesson from Mr Doyle though. WAy off topic now, there are people on this board who have had many a lesson from Lynn, Ben , Alex, Jeff, Greg, Tom , Ted ...... We tend to bite our tongues on the differences out of respect. Which is due, but there are differences.

here you go . . . certainly practices what he preaches . . . but it is it the gospel?

clubface to the ground???

http://www.youtube.com/user/bendoyle...17/r_d08dBe5mc

[O.B.Left]

Aiming point in front of the ball like Ben would be an acceptable variation under 6-E wouldn't it?

If you went further on into his swing I feel the flashlight would also point at his belly along with a more pronounced roll.

Yes typically for shorter sticks though. Longer lever's might have the Aiming Point on the other side of the ball, several inches prior to Impact along the Arc of Approach. Finding your clubs ideal Aiming Point requires trial and error and is dependent upon the length of the lever, hand speed , release type, the hook face nature of your club etc etc. Lynn fit me for my driver's Aiming Point which is several inches prior to the ball along the ARc. Right on the ground underneath where the leading edge of my Driver hovers at Address. Thats what Im looking at , thrusting towards although I dont want to fat it of course. Man that trick works for me. My wedge has the Aiming Point on the other side of the ball......by an inch or so. Dont use that one very much, just use the ball instead.

Talking Aiming Point here as opposed to the Impact Hands Location. A spot along the Arc which replaces the ball, a spot which you Aim your Thrust at as opposed to the visual of the Hands returning to their Fix position. Both are precisely located per the lever length and situation at hand, neither is a "one spot fits all" or " the more forward the better" deal.

There's a big difference between the two. Using Homers terminology as he intended, nobody should have an Aiming Point over their left toe for instance, unless their left toe is laying on the Arc of Approach and they intend to thrust the sweetspot at it. Impact Hands location over your big toe? Maybe.

Im pro Doyle, no disrespect intended. He was the first A.I. which was not easy. I blame Bucket for this. He's cast some sort of magic spell on me again, damn.

[chipingguru]

I am sure no disrespect is intended by anyone toward Mr. Doyle. I think Yoda would agree with your analysis. Many believe that Ben and also Bobby Clampett have "aiming point" wrong. Maybe they do.

But the book states that the aiming point concept can change depending on invididual hand speed, either aft or forward. So if you stated an "aiming point" near the left foot, is that necessarily incorrect? That is, in fact, forward of the ball.

Also, frame one and two of the Ben swing is classic "spoke" straight line from the top right to the ball. He surely isnt doing a wheel rim procedure. Hogan, by contrast, swings to the end and then an Arc/straight line movement.

I am always struck by how far off the right foot Hogan is on the downswing, and the down toward the ground thrust. Amazing. Obviously far more powerful that Ben's action(Doyle that is). (in fairness that is not Ben in his prime when he played a tour event).

I interchanged the "Ben's" there, but too lazy to change it.