Woods vs. Irons

[O.B.Left]

My “thinking” mind gets the geometry of the ball played back of low point (up plane). My “feeling” or intuitive mind has a different image.

If you can imagine the “ball on a string” analogy being whirled in a perfect orbit. Once the orbit is adjusted (tilted and moved) such that it intersects with a ball lying on the ground - like an iron shot - the perfect orbit is suddenly and violently destroyed. On paper, sure you can draw a perfect geometry. But in the real world does not the ground interfere, especially on hardpan or firm ground? So my “feeling” mind does not want to have the clubhead orbit collide with the ground. Even if this feeling is misguided on many levels (I figure maintaining the proper geometry is most crucial for the small number of milliseconds between impact and separation, not after the ball is long gone) it nonetheless is etched in my subconscious

Furthermore, I perceive an iron shot as having to be much more exacting. Contact the ground just before the ball and the shot is miserable and costly. The same degree of poor execution on a wood will result in an off-centre contact but likely a less penal result, even for woods played off the ground. Again, my “feeling” mind does not want the clubhead to collide with the ground first, so there is perhaps a tendency to subconsciously gravitate to thin contact – at least the outcome is more palatable.

This post has touched on the mental side though my problems (I sort of see my iron problems as “Yips”). Any comments on how to figuratively wipe the slate clean and re-program? I’ve got to admit, I’m slowly starting to panic!!!

You know how I mentioned the "hooked face" nature of irons? Progressively more hooked faced as they get shorter given that they are designed to be played further and further back of low point. Well if you address them up near low point , with a face rotated open to square it to the line you have effectively added loft to the club AND removed a lot of the DOWN in the Angle of Attack. You are set up for a clean pick off and a ball that will fly higher and shorter than normal. As well your clean pick off will in fact be more exacting , demand more precision than a ball played further back at its "straight away" position. Hitting down on an iron makes the contact easier to replicate , its a luxury (less) available to us for long irons say. You can get this feeling of "covering" the ball, trapping it , squishing it ..... it'll will seem like you are trying to squish the ball against the ground (which wont really happen given loft).

One way to practice this is to put a golf magazine a few inches prior to the ball . Trying to hit the ball without striking the magazine first will encourage you to hit down on the ball. Keep working on getting the ball further back in your stance with the shorter irons (ideally back to their "straight away position) and keep sneaking the magazine in closer and closer to the ball. You will have to employ "Grip Rotation" see 7-2 as you move the ball back. As you move your Hands back along the ARc your Left Hand should turn accordingly (it doesnt stay pointed at the target or where ever, it points more and more to the right progressively as you move the ball and Hands further back in your stance). You will need to Rotate the Grip by opening your hands and rotating , spinning the club counter clockwise to square the face to the target line. More and more Rotation as you move the ball further back. This will combination of a square face and down and OUT to Low Point clubhead path will promote, create a draw shot. But not a big draw though as the steeper Inclined Plane of the shorter irons reduces the Divergence between Path and Face and the increased loft and Angle of Attack create more backspin than "side spin" so to speak. In reality its really what Homer called "tilted back spin" rather than "side spin" and backspin. YOu cant spin a ball along two axis at the same time. With the shorter irons there's less tilt to the axis so you dont really need to fear the draw spin tendency too much, but it is there. Huge draws suggest more Divergence than planned for.

This is the recipe for "nuking" a mid or short iron I believe , muscular force helps but this is the geometry being employed. I lose about 10 yards or so with a sand wedge when I play up in my stance.

As far as your concerns about lowering your clubhead into the dirt prior to contact , research Impact Fix. Imagine the divot as something that is a product of the manner in which you set up , not something you go down and after with your swing. Its a "machine adjustment" set according to the ball position. A product of the relationship between the length of your Radius and the distance from the Center of the Radius to the Ground.

Like the ball on a string idea you mention , imagine the Left Arm as a string extending from your Left Shoulder to your Hands. With the string stretched out so its taught (Extensor Action) and your Left Wrist held Level and your Hands and Arms in their desired Impact alignments YOU CAN SET YOUR LEFT SHOULDER ( THE CENTER OF THE RADIUS) IN ITS IDEAL IMPACT POSITION with the Radius of your Arm Swing precisely measured, set for perfect contact. This Impact Fix procedure will ripple through your entire body: waist bend, knee flex , the on plane right Forearm, the location of your head, your gaze at the ball, looking straight out of your eyes rather than down your cheeks , square eye line etc etc. If you return to impact in the same manner blammo. You get the divot, the down , the out , the circular orbit etc.

As an aside chipping yips I believe are often a result of having the ball positioned too far up in the stance. Your body sways over try to get ahead of the ball , a subconscious compensation for the ball being in the wrong place. Its a weird business, as if your brain knows something your conscious mind doesnt (that the ball needs to be hit down on). Never thought about it for longer iron shots but .......it wouldnt surprise me.

Hard pan? Move the ball up for a cleaner pick off if you must ....if you're hitting off a cart path say. But it'll demand more precision and will fly higher and shorter.

Seve used to hit flop shots with his 2 iron for fun. He'd move the ball up near low point , lay the blade wide open, swing a little flatter to take out some of the Down etc. Try it out. They fly to the right, short , high , fade and take a huge sharp bounce to the right on landing....... similar to what a hacker gets when he doesnt want it. Both employ a similar methodology. One intentionally, one not. One set of physics and geometry, one ball response.

[JerryG]

You know how I mentioned the "hooked face" nature of irons? Progressively more hooked faced as they get shorter given that they are designed to be played further and further back of low point. Well if you address them up near low point , with a face rotated open to square it to the line you have effectively added loft to the club AND removed a lot of the DOWN in the Angle of Attack. You are set up for a clean pick off and a ball that will fly higher and shorter than normal. As well your clean pick off will in fact be more exacting , demand more precision than a ball played further back at its "straight away" position. Hitting down on an iron makes the contact easier to replicate , its a luxury (less) available to us for long irons say. You can get this feeling of "covering" the ball, trapping it , squishing it ..... it'll will seem like you are trying to squish the ball against the ground (which wont really happen given loft).

One way to practice this is to put a golf magazine a few inches prior to the ball . Trying to hit the ball without striking the magazine first will encourage you to hit down on the ball. Keep working on getting the ball further back in your stance with the shorter irons (ideally back to their "straight away position) and keep sneaking the magazine in closer and closer to the ball. You will have to employ "Grip Rotation" see 7-2 as you move the ball back. As you move your Hands back along the ARc your Left Hand should turn accordingly (it doesnt stay pointed at the target or where ever, it points more and more to the right progressively as you move the ball and Hands further back in your stance). You will need to Rotate the Grip by opening your hands and rotating , spinning the club counter clockwise to square the face to the target line. More and more Rotation as you move the ball further back. This will combination of a square face and down and OUT to Low Point clubhead path will promote, create a draw shot. But not a big draw though as the steeper Inclined Plane of the shorter irons reduces the Divergence between Path and Face and the increased loft and Angle of Attack create more backspin than "side spin" so to speak. In reality its really what Homer called "tilted back spin" rather than "side spin" and backspin. YOu cant spin a ball along two axis at the same time. With the shorter irons there's less tilt to the axis so you dont really need to fear the draw spin tendency too much, but it is there. Huge draws suggest more Divergence than planned for.

This is the recipe for "nuking" a mid or short iron I believe , muscular force helps but this is the geometry being employed. I lose about 10 yards or so with a sand wedge when I play up in my stance.

As far as your concerns about lowering your clubhead into the dirt prior to contact , research Impact Fix. Imagine the divot as something that is a product of the manner in which you set up , not something you go down and after with your swing. Its a "machine adjustment" set according to the ball position. A product of the relationship between the length of your Radius and the distance from the Center of the Radius to the Ground.

Like the ball on a string idea you mention , imagine the Left Arm as a string extending from your Left Shoulder to your Hands. With the string stretched out so its taught (Extensor Action) and your Left Wrist held Level and your Hands and Arms in their desired Impact alignments YOU CAN SET YOUR LEFT SHOULDER ( THE CENTER OF THE RADIUS) IN ITS IDEAL IMPACT POSITION with the Radius of your Arm Swing precisely measured, set for perfect contact. This Impact Fix procedure will ripple through your entire body: waist bend, knee flex , the on plane right Forearm, the location of your head, your gaze at the ball, looking straight out of your eyes rather than down your cheeks , square eye line etc etc. If you return to impact in the same manner blammo. You get the divot, the down , the out , the circular orbit etc.

As an aside chipping yips I believe are often a result of having the ball positioned too far up in the stance. Your body sways over try to get ahead of the ball , a subconscious compensation for the ball being in the wrong place. Its a weird business, as if your brain knows something your conscious mind doesnt (that the ball needs to be hit down on). Never thought about it for longer iron shots but .......it wouldnt surprise me.

Hard pan? Move the ball up for a cleaner pick off if you must ....if you're hitting off a cart path say. But it'll demand more precision and will fly higher and shorter.

Seve used to hit flop shots with his 2 iron for fun. He'd move the ball up near low point , lay the blade wide open, swing a little flatter to take out some of the Down etc. Try it out. They fly to the right, short , high , fade and take a huge sharp bounce to the right on landing....... similar to what a hacker gets when he doesnt want it. Both employ a similar methodology. One intentionally, one not. One set of physics and geometry, one ball response.

My goodness, O.B. That's pure gold!

[3Putt]

I guess no one is immune.....from mikeweir.com June 1/11, Mike's blog

"I think it's safe to say that my elbow injury caused me to develop some bad habits and one of those was my fear of going down after the ball. I was sort of anticipating the pain that might occur if I hit the ground and as a result, I started to swing with almost a reverse C, with my weight moving backwards instead of into the ball. I just did this gradually and over time, it just got worse and worse."

[3Putt]

Imagine the divot as something that is a product of the manner in which you set up , not something you go down and after with your swing.

Thanks OB. Your choice of words struck a chord with me. I don't need to force a divot - it is a natural consequence of the appropriate machine setup.

In your first response you mentioned the release type. This is a really foggy area for me. I don't really have a grasp of release types and triggers, let alone know which variations I employ. Do you have any additional comments on the release of irons vs woods.

I can only describe what I feel. For woods, there is no conscious thought. Release just happens. I feel as if I trust centrifugal force and go along for the ride. If I had to guess, I'd say a sweep release. For irons, it seems to be a sharper/crisper/more abrupt delivery as opposed to going along for the ride of the orbiting clubhead. I periodically arrive at impact with an (over) bent right wrist/right arm (having to make a god-awful compensation just to get the clubhead in the vicinity of the ball) And a glancing blow severely right, not a shank but a severely open clubface. That "wilted feeling of a blocked shot"

Again, back to my question. Why so easy with woods and so difficult with irons.

Thanks
3putt

[12 piece bucket]

Thanks OB. Your choice of words struck a chord with me. I don't need to force a divot - it is a natural consequence of the appropriate machine setup.

In your first response you mentioned the release type. This is a really foggy area for me. I don't really have a grasp of release types and triggers, let alone know which variations I employ. Do you have any additional comments on the release of irons vs woods.

I can only describe what I feel. For woods, there is no conscious thought. Release just happens. I feel as if I trust centrifugal force and go along for the ride. If I had to guess, I'd say a sweep release. For irons, it seems to be a sharper/crisper/more abrupt delivery as opposed to going along for the ride of the orbiting clubhead. I periodically arrive at impact with an (over) bent right wrist/right arm (having to make a god-awful compensation just to get the clubhead in the vicinity of the ball) And a glancing blow severely right, not a shank but a severely open clubface. That "wilted feeling of a blocked shot"

Again, back to my question. Why so easy with woods and so difficult with irons.

Thanks
3putt

Where would your left elbow be pointing from release to impact? I find that if you "over do" the sexy trigger delay pitch elbow hitting down chasing shaft lean with the irons . . . you never get the butt cap to look "back at your hips" . . . the butt cap looks down the line too long . . . shifts the plane out to the right, opens the face and causes center of your shoulder turn to move backward. Notice where the butt cap is pointing at address as if it were a flash light. It would shine to the left of Peter but still shine on your hips . . as you get into delivery and release you want that light to shine back toward you and not so much "down the line" . . . the butt cap/handle works in toward your center and the clubhead works out to the ball. If you don't let your hands and the handle work back "into you" and they continue out toward the ball too long, you raise up the handle shifting the face vector right (like a side hill lie) and open the face.

So if you had a stick sticking out of that hole in the butt cap, you need to release so that you maintain your left arm wedge alignment . . . you have to move your hands (#3 and #2) in a way that would get that stick to slap you in the ulna bone as you go to full lever extension (fully uncocked) . . . kinda like doing a volley ball dig . . . sounds like your club is never "encountering" the pulley portion of the endless belt . . . look at Hogan and where the "flash light" in the butt cap would be shining . . . also imagine he's popping a volley ball up in frames 3-4-5.

Also note in the first frame . . . there's not this big "Ben Doyle" angle present . . . the the angles are releasing/expanding . . . not holding on.







Note where Doyles flash light would shine!!! . . . Note how he is tilting backward . . . Hogan tilts his shoulders obviously but he is way more forward and MOVING FORWARD . . . not tilting back . . . Doyle's light never shines back at him . . . off plane motion . . . hanging on . . too much shaft lean . . . hook swing . . . maximum participation pattern has given the machine a bad name.

[O.B.Left]

Hey Bucket I'm not that familiar with what Mr Doyle teaches. Does he get to that late Release point by "holding on"' to number 2 angle? I like the notion that the Hands are just clamps and the Wrists are tension free, add some extensor action for Structure. Holding on is not possible this way. That's why I don't like that deal where people pose at a late release point........ You have to freeze your wrists to cop that pose. Not what you should do when really swinging.

Interesting Hand Path there ......not truly straight line but really straight relatively speaking.

[NCHamr]

I can't tell if the camera angles are similar enough for me to make my observations, but a couple thing jumped out at me when looking at these. Firstly, in frame one of Hogan and three of Doyle, their hands are at the right thigh. so with that similar hand position, what I noticed was a more Pitch-y Elbow and more Acc. 2 with Doyle, and Hogan's Left Knee being more toward the target than Doyle. Then going to frame 2 of Hogan and 4 of Doyle, Hogan's hands are inside his left thigh at Impact with his flashlight pointing to his left hip or just outside, where Doyle's hands are on his left thigh prior to Impact and his flashlight still way outside of his body. There could be something to all this, there could not be, but all I'm saying is those Hogan frames are the ones I'd more likely make into posters and hang on my walls

[12 piece bucket]

I can't tell if the camera angles are similar enough for me to make my observations, but a couple thing jumped out at me when looking at these. Firstly, in frame one of Hogan and three of Doyle, their hands are at the right thigh. so with that similar hand position, what I noticed was a more Pitch-y Elbow and more Acc. 2 with Doyle, and Hogan's Left Knee being more toward the target than Doyle. Then going to frame 2 of Hogan and 4 of Doyle, Hogan's hands are inside his left thigh at Impact with his flashlight pointing to his left hip or just outside, where Doyle's hands are on his left thigh prior to Impact and his flashlight still way outside of his body. There could be something to all this, there could not be, but all I'm saying is those Hogan frames are the ones I'd more likely make into posters and hang on my walls

Absolutely Hogan gets a poster Doyle gets posterized as the kids say . . . Like my man the nefarious dr. evil genius Eddie Cox (who you need to see if you are in NC) . . . put yourself in those positions and then say "How do you hit the ball from here??" If you get your elbow that pitchy . . . you are going to have to a. straighten the left knee earlier b. tilt your spine back c. have to make some kind of whacky move to get the face on the ball or strengthen your grip d. keep the radius short so you don't hit behind . . .

Another Eddie Cox deal . . . Are those "compressed angles" really that effective or is it a result of "lag (accumulator lag) envy"?

[O.B.Left]

Absolutely Hogan gets a poster Doyle gets posterized as the kids say . . . Like my man the nefarious dr. evil genius Eddie Cox (who you need to see if you are in NC) . . . put yourself in those positions and then say "How do you hit the ball from here??" If you get your elbow that pitchy . . . you are going to have to a. straighten the left knee earlier b. tilt your spine back c. have to make some kind of whacky move to get the face on the ball or strengthen your grip d. keep the radius short so you don't hit behind . . .

Another Eddie Cox deal . . . Are those "compressed angles" really that effective or is it a result of "lag (accumulator lag) envy"?

Interesting stuff Buck. I do see a strong grip on Mr Doyle there as opposed to Hogan weak left hand grip. And an iron shot vs a driver for Hogan and some perhaps over zealous shaft lean. His left hand is way turned on the club no? Strong Single Action grip maybe? He's knuckles up. Just saying I agree with you ......his face angle at Top , his shaft lean .....its related to his strong left hand grip Im thinking. His #2 cocks and uncocks on the same plane as his Right Wrist bends. His wedges are not 90 degrees to each other but in line perhaps? (Lab coats please) His shaft lean is a not fully uncocked/released #2 angle.


I dunno. I got a Hogan grip myself , thumb on top but maybe Ted would comment. His left hand is turned. Wish I could retrain the thing to get a little stronger.

Just saying that without the turned left hand grip type those would be some weird positions yes but with .............its a different story. Shaft lean becomes #2 angle too. #2 angle is the same as Right Wrist Bend. Cats chasing dogs. Water running running up hill.

I got some Bobby Clampett film I should put up . A practice swing with a driver that looks just like Mr Doyle there and then the actual stroke with a more six oclock shaft lean. From Carnoustie last year at the Senior Open. Crazy beautiful stuff, but if he'd actually hit the driver with that amount of shaft lean it'd be fore right, given his grip type. Is this all something to do with the Ben Doyle version of the Aiming Point? The Impact Hands Location taken to an extreme with all clubs and sometimes begetting a super strong left hand grip to make it work , face wise? Great for shorter irons maybe? I dunno. Id love to get a lesson from Mr Doyle though. WAy off topic now, there are people on this board who have had many a lesson from Lynn, Ben , Alex, Jeff, Greg, Tom , Ted ...... We tend to bite our tongues on the differences out of respect. Which is due, but there are differences.