Absolutely Hogan gets a poster Doyle gets posterized as the kids say . . . Like my man the nefarious dr. evil genius Eddie Cox (who you need to see if you are in NC) . . . put yourself in those positions and then say "How do you hit the ball from here??" If you get your elbow that pitchy . . . you are going to have to a. straighten the left knee earlier b. tilt your spine back c. have to make some kind of whacky move to get the face on the ball or strengthen your grip d. keep the radius short so you don't hit behind . . .
Another Eddie Cox deal . . . Are those "compressed angles" really that effective or is it a result of "lag (accumulator lag) envy"?
Interesting stuff Buck. I do see a strong grip on Mr Doyle there as opposed to Hogan weak left hand grip. And an iron shot vs a driver for Hogan and some perhaps over zealous shaft lean. His left hand is way turned on the club no? Strong Single Action grip maybe? He's knuckles up. Just saying I agree with you ......his face angle at Top , his shaft lean .....its related to his strong left hand grip Im thinking. His #2 cocks and uncocks on the same plane as his Right Wrist bends. His wedges are not 90 degrees to each other but in line perhaps? (Lab coats please) His shaft lean is a not fully uncocked/released #2 angle.
I dunno. I got a Hogan grip myself , thumb on top but maybe Ted would comment. His left hand is turned. Wish I could retrain the thing to get a little stronger.
Just saying that without the turned left hand grip type those would be some weird positions yes but with .............its a different story. Shaft lean becomes #2 angle too. #2 angle is the same as Right Wrist Bend. Cats chasing dogs. Water running running up hill.
I got some Bobby Clampett film I should put up . A practice swing with a driver that looks just like Mr Doyle there and then the actual stroke with a more six oclock shaft lean. From Carnoustie last year at the Senior Open. Crazy beautiful stuff, but if he'd actually hit the driver with that amount of shaft lean it'd be fore right, given his grip type. Is this all something to do with the Ben Doyle version of the Aiming Point? The Impact Hands Location taken to an extreme with all clubs and sometimes begetting a super strong left hand grip to make it work , face wise? Great for shorter irons maybe? I dunno. Id love to get a lesson from Mr Doyle though. WAy off topic now, there are people on this board who have had many a lesson from Lynn, Ben , Alex, Jeff, Greg, Tom , Ted ...... We tend to bite our tongues on the differences out of respect. Which is due, but there are differences.
Aiming point in front of the ball like Ben would be an acceptable variation under 6-E wouldn't it?
If you went further on into his swing I feel the flashlight would also point at his belly along with a more pronounced roll.
Yes typically for shorter sticks though. Longer lever's might have the Aiming Point on the other side of the ball, several inches prior to Impact along the Arc of Approach. Finding your clubs ideal Aiming Point requires trial and error and is dependent upon the length of the lever, hand speed , release type, the hook face nature of your club etc etc. Lynn fit me for my driver's Aiming Point which is several inches prior to the ball along the ARc. Right on the ground underneath where the leading edge of my Driver hovers at Address. Thats what Im looking at , thrusting towards although I dont want to fat it of course. Man that trick works for me. My wedge has the Aiming Point on the other side of the ball......by an inch or so. Dont use that one very much, just use the ball instead.
Talking Aiming Point here as opposed to the Impact Hands Location. A spot along the Arc which replaces the ball, a spot which you Aim your Thrust at as opposed to the visual of the Hands returning to their Fix position. Both are precisely located per the lever length and situation at hand, neither is a "one spot fits all" or " the more forward the better" deal.
There's a big difference between the two. Using Homers terminology as he intended, nobody should have an Aiming Point over their left toe for instance, unless their left toe is laying on the Arc of Approach and they intend to thrust the sweetspot at it. Impact Hands location over your big toe? Maybe.
Im pro Doyle, no disrespect intended. He was the first A.I. which was not easy. I blame Bucket for this. He's cast some sort of magic spell on me again, damn.
I am sure no disrespect is intended by anyone toward Mr. Doyle. I think Yoda would agree with your analysis. Many believe that Ben and also Bobby Clampett have "aiming point" wrong. Maybe they do.
But the book states that the aiming point concept can change depending on invididual hand speed, either aft or forward. So if you stated an "aiming point" near the left foot, is that necessarily incorrect? That is, in fact, forward of the ball.
Also, frame one and two of the Ben swing is classic "spoke" straight line from the top right to the ball. He surely isnt doing a wheel rim procedure. Hogan, by contrast, swings to the end and then an Arc/straight line movement.
I am always struck by how far off the right foot Hogan is on the downswing, and the down toward the ground thrust. Amazing. Obviously far more powerful that Ben's action(Doyle that is). (in fairness that is not Ben in his prime when he played a tour event).
I interchanged the "Ben's" there, but too lazy to change it.
But the book states that the aiming point concept can change depending on invididual hand speed, either aft or forward. So if you stated an "aiming point" near the left foot, is that necessarily incorrect? That is, in fact, forward of the ball.
Staying true to the books definitions of things, itd be incorrect in my opinion. In that the the left foot is not on the Arc of Approach or Angle of Approach. The Hands may appear to be over the left foot visually, at Impact however. The Aiming Point and the Impact Hands Location are somewhat related but not fully interchangeable concepts. You do not thrust your lag pressure , the sweetspot at your left foot. The Aiming Point moves but not much , just a few inches fore and aft of the ball along the Arc or Angle of Approach, nowhere near your left foot.
To miss out on Homers actual Aiming Point Procedure is a loss. Its the alternate procedure to Tracing, a geometrical equivalent but with decidedly more DOWN and OUT in feel and in real too. Thrust being cross line, Down and OUt to Both Arms Straight. Moving the Aiming Point fore and aft manages the way longer clubs/levers switch ends, square up slower. Very useful things that the Impact Hands Location doesnt address.
For the record Mr Doyle, as the first A.I., had the insurmountable task of interpreting Homers crazy book of riddles to the masses. He did an amazing job and left a map for the rest of us to follow and refine. Respectfully.
If your using the swinging procedure, and taking the club back to "end", under an Arc/straight delivery path (as stated in the swingers section of Capter 12), once you get on the "spoke" straight line path what is the specific thrust and or aiming point direction after the hands pass the point where they no longer point at the ball? (obviously, they only point at the ball so long).
Or, more simply put, is it actually the hands going in a straight line toward the ball, or the clubhead using lag and monitoring with the #3 pressure point toward the inside aft portion of the ball?
what s the visual line after you have taken it toward the ball?
If your using the swinging procedure, and taking the club back to "end", under an Arc/straight delivery path (as stated in the swingers section of Capter 12), once you get on the "spoke" straight line path what is the specific thrust and or aiming point direction after the hands pass the point where they no longer point at the ball? (obviously, they only point at the ball so long).
Or, more simply put, is it actually the hands going in a straight line toward the ball, or the clubhead using lag and monitoring with the #3 pressure point toward the inside aft portion of the ball?
what s the visual line after you have taken it toward the ball?
Anybody got Yoda's lifeline?
Chip, thanks by the way. I dont wish to be vague but to answer these questions I'd say:
-What would the corresponding answers be if the procedure in question was a throwing of a stone at the golf ball from your golf posture, from Top? Top removing the Arc associated with the move of the Hands from End to Top. Now that would be an Active Right Arm I know , making it Hitting or Right Arm Swinging in golf terms, not 12-2 Swinging per say. But even then with passive Right Arm Swinging the Right ARm is Thrown. Similar to Hogan's book where he describes the baseball player sidearming a ball to first base. (The first base thing could be amended to be Down and OUt at the golf ball or Aiming Point to be more correct, I believe. But he got the OUT part right and the Forward making him 2 for 3 on Three Dimensional Impact).
-per 1-L-15
"The club starts up-and-in after Low Point but thrust continues down plane during the Follow Through."
Meaning the Thrust continues Down Plane and towards the Base Line after Impact up to and including Both Arms Straight. There's just way more Down to be had than most people realize, conceptualize.
If your using the swinging procedure, and taking the club back to "end", under an Arc/straight delivery path (as stated in the swingers section of Capter 12), once you get on the "spoke" straight line path what is the specific thrust and or aiming point direction after the hands pass the point where they no longer point at the ball? (obviously, they only point at the ball so long).
Or, more simply put, is it actually the hands going in a straight line toward the ball, or the clubhead using lag and monitoring with the #3 pressure point toward the inside aft portion of the ball?
what s the visual line after you have taken it toward the ball?
This is a problem IMO with how the machine is taught . . . the hands don't go in a straight line to the ball for very long . . . that is going to produce off plane mechanics. If your intention is to move the hands in a straight line effort straight to the ball . . . think of how the club is going to respond . . . if you pull the handle and hands out the clubhead is going to lay down and stay behind . . . the handle certainly works down but then the butt cap also is going to work back toward your center so the clubhead can move down and OUT to the ball. If you take your hands all the way to the ball your have to uncock your wrists UNDER working the sweetspot underneath. Kinda like your left thumb uncocks underneath. If you work the handle back "into your center" the left thumb is going to uncock OUT TO THE PLANE LINE. You have to balance both ends of the club to be on plane. To me Doyle is teaching an underneath uncocking deal which results in too much perverted axis tilt and the right shoulder motion doesn't get far enough forward so he has to make the left wrist the center of the stroke rather than the left shoulder. Hogan and Doyle release the club COMPLETELY different. I'm sure people look at those static pictures of Hogan with acute angles and think "I gotta replicate that picture". Look at where the club is in space. . . you can't play effective golf with that much "angle" left IMO. Trigger delay may look hot . . . but when you pull her skirt up . . . you may get shocked.
Staying true to the books definitions of things, itd be incorrect in my opinion. In that the the left foot is not on the Arc of Approach or Angle of Approach. The Hands may appear to be over the left foot visually, at Impact however. The Aiming Point and the Impact Hands Location are somewhat related but not fully interchangeable concepts. You do not thrust your lag pressure , the sweetspot at your left foot. The Aiming Point moves but not much , just a few inches fore and aft of the ball along the Arc or Angle of Approach, nowhere near your left foot.
To miss out on Homers actual Aiming Point Procedure is a loss. Its the alternate procedure to Tracing, a geometrical equivalent but with decidedly more DOWN and OUT in feel and in real too. Thrust being cross line, Down and OUt to Both Arms Straight. Moving the Aiming Point fore and aft manages the way longer clubs/levers switch ends, square up slower. Very useful things that the Impact Hands Location doesnt address.
For the record Mr Doyle, as the first A.I., had the insurmountable task of interpreting Homers crazy book of riddles to the masses. He did an amazing job and left a map for the rest of us to follow and refine. Respectfully.
I watched videos from Gregg McHatton that studied under Ben Doyle and Rick Nielson that is a student of McHatton, I watched Doyle's free videos as well. I looks to me they teach pivot controlled hands. McHatton insists a lot on soft wrists and hard work from the pivot, and I get the same feeling from seeing Ben Doyle in his video teaching students. My guess is that with pivot controlled hands they preferred to change the aiming point concept since they might not want to put "the mind on the hands".
Hybrid Mode
