Thanks just trying to understand. I swing flat back and under the plane on the downswing so I am constantly in search of something to fix this.
I think if you are swinging on the TSP vs elbow plane, with a zero shift (still shifting from elbow to TSP but its a small shift) you dont have to worry about shifting back down to the elbow plane. Think of Phil or Jack, if you look at where the shaft is half way down, its disecting their upper arm, its not lined up to the rt forearm like Hogan, Sergio,Trevino (DTL view)
but I digress...still trying to figure out the flat vs rotaed shoulder turn, and our friend OB is doing his best to help see the benefit of ...thanks OB!
Where's Kevin? I think he has been moving to more of steeper shoulder turn BS w/ good results
I think if you are swinging on the TSP vs elbow plane, with a zero shift (still shifting from elbow to TSP but its a small shift) you dont have to worry about shifting back down to the elbow plane. Think of Phil or Jack, if you look at where the shaft is half way down, its disecting their upper arm, its not lined up to the rt forearm like Hogan, Sergio,Trevino (DTL view)
but I digress...still trying to figure out the flat vs rotaed shoulder turn, and our friend OB is doing his best to help see the benefit of ...thanks OB!
Where's Kevin? I think he has been moving to more of steeper shoulder turn BS w/ good results
I'm watching and listening...
I have been moving to a "feel" of a rotated shoulder turn as my shoulders were staying too level for my set up. I stoop a lot more than Lynn. I'm trying to fix that as well, but it's a process. I think the more you are bent over from the waist, the steeper the shoulder turn will look...
I would like to hear from the boss if that is following the proper path...
Kevin
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I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
I have been moving to a "feel" of a rotated shoulder turn as my shoulders were staying too level for my set up. I stoop a lot more than Lynn. I'm trying to fix that as well, but it's a process. I think the more you are bent over from the waist, the steeper the shoulder turn will look...
I would like to hear from the boss if that is following the proper path...
Kevin
thanks for chiming in Kev. Could definately see how bending over more would give you the look of a steeper turn. I need to go back and check the AG dvd to see what Lynn says about about posture. Brian G, and Jeff seem to stand pretty tall to the ball, thus giving a flatter "look"
In my Cuscowilla notes Lynn says ""Homer said number one reasons golfers don't improve is right hip doesn't clear in start up. Stack and tilt - their deal is left shoulder goes down. Start on hands plane and then go to elbow plane. This is very flat. He talked about the shoulder supporting hands on same plane. But is stack and tilt right shoulder does a different way. In TGM the idea is to put the right shoulder on plane. that plane is behind you not up high. In the backstroke the hands have been on the plane all the time, the shoulder is getting there, getting there. Now when the hands are right shoulder high both of then are joined together. Then you can take back further - that is fine. Then trace right down that base line. He showed a picture of Larry Nelson with his centered head at start down. There is a big element in the golf machine that says sit and tilt. Remember you put the shoulder on the plane and leave it there. When the weight goes left that tilts the spine. That allows you to leave it on the plane. It doesn't go back where it started from (address). That is flat shoulder turn 10-13-b. Establish head and hand position at fix then you come back to adjusted address. Now guess what? No bobbing required. He pointed out Larry Nelson picture - "that is all the tilt you need". Any mnore tilt than that will send you under plane. You see it everywhere - sit and tilt. NO! your shoulder was already on plane. Don't want to tilt under it. The proper move permits you to drive it at the ball - Destroy the ball with your right shoulder. So we have the shoulder turned back and that permits it to go at the ball rather than back to its address position. My notes of Lynn Blake October 2008 Cuscowilla
good stuff David....Im not discounting S&T and the steeper turn, it works for Charlie Wi, but Im not Charlie. I need a procedure that is repeatable, for some S&T may be just that, but I love the idea of being able to fire my on plane rt shoulder at the ball w/out having to drop the club back onto the elbow plane. A LOT of great players do/did make that shift, but Im just looking for solid ball striking w/out compensations, and it seems playing off the TSP for ME is the way to go....
........ In the backstroke the hands have been on the plane all the time, the shoulder is getting there, getting there. Now when the hands are right shoulder high both of then are joined together. Then you can take back further - that is fine. Then trace right down that base line. .........
That describes my feel.
In a previous sentence you stated "Homer said number one reasons golfers don't improve is right hip doesn't clear in start up".
Did he mean that the Right Hip blocked the Right Elbow and that golfers should move the right hip out of the way of the right elbow or was he saying that Golfers don't know how to get passed the Right Hip when using a Right Forearm Takeaway?
Best thread in a long time. Interesting question. I follow David Sandridge's thoughts explicitly regarding the right hip clearing on the backswing. I have tended to turn the right shoulder too flat. Clearing the right hip on the backswing while moving the left shoulder down puts me in the position I need to be at the top. It is rotated appearing, but only because of my spine angle at setup. The more you bend from the waist, the more rotated you look. I clear the right hip at startup, my hands move in and up on plane and the shoulders do what they do according to my hands. My hands do not control the hip clearing which may be why Homer focuses on the rt hip clearing as a separate movement from the hands. But, the shoulders go where the hands tell them. Set-up, clear right hip, move hands back in and up on plane and the shoulder ends up pretty good. The pics of Toms and Goosen are illustrative because Goosen bends over a little more and his face is angled more to the ground. Interesting to hear Yoda's take, considering his recent talk on hands controlled pivot.
5-0 GENERAL............. If you feel your game isn’t reflecting your understanding of Alignments- STOP MONITORING THE CLUBFACE INSTEAD OF YOUR HANDS. And, unless otherwise specified, at all times – but especially during Start Down- maintain the Clubhead Lag relationship to the Plane Line – not the body. That – failure to clear Right Hip (Roundhouse) can initiate almost every alignment disruption, including SHANKING (2-F, 3-F-7-E, 6-C-2).
So, failure to clear the Right Hip is a Pivot Controlled Hands problem? This? a cause of Downstroke Shoulder Turn "Spinout" (the Right Shoulder rotating outwards, above the Plane).
In a previous sentence you stated "Homer said number one reasons golfers don't improve is right hip doesn't clear in start up".
Did he mean that the Right Hip blocked the Right Elbow and that golfers should move the right hip out of the way of the right elbow or was he saying that Golfers don't know how to get passed the Right Hip when using a Right Forearm Takeaway?
The former I believe. Hence the early first reference to "clear the right hip" in 12-3. If you dont the Hands will go out and around , to prevent the collision and take the club with them....outside. Very common back in Homers day. Outside , with an unbending right elbow and then a lot of heavy lifting to sky high hands, Turning Shoulder Plane. The fix began with the Hips clearing an inside path for the Right Elbow ....back and then down.
There's a second "clear the Right Hip" in 12-3 too.......prior to Startdown I believe, dont have my book with me, which I think relates to the Delayed turn with a Hip Slide. This clears a nice path for the right elbow to pass on the downstroke.
Hogan might have the blended the two into one movement......turnandslide. That guy cleared his Right Hip ......he had to, to attack from the inside like he did.
"Well the most important move in golf is the movement of the lower body".
Nowadays some people think you can avoid the slide all together and just turn..... interesting stuff.
Hybrid Mode
